EP104: Consumer Psychology and RFPs—with Sean Stewart
We’d like to believe that we make purchasing decisions based on logic. But consumer psychology research affirms that, in truth, we buy based on emotion. And we’re unconsciously influenced by visual cues and sensory language.
So, how might we apply the principles of consumer psychology and behavioral economics to the proposal development process?
Marketing Strategy Consultant Sean Stewart has 20 years of service marketing experience, serving as a proposal writer, proposal manager and marketing director for firms large and small. He has a Master of Science degree in Applied Psychology from the University of Southern California with an emphasis in consumer psychology.
On this episode of The RFP Success Show, Sean joins me to discuss the fundamentals of consumer psychology and explain how to convey a brand identity of competence and warmth in your proposal.
Sean describes how visuals unconsciously influence our choices, offering advice on using haptic cues, callout boxes and sensory language to persuade evaluators in an RFP response.
Listen in for Sean’s insight on using the ‘laddering interview’ to build relationships with potential clients and learn how to apply the principles of consumer psychology to win more business with RFPs!
Key Takeaways
How Sean defines consumer psychology as the study of how people make purchasing decisions
What differentiates account-based marketing from marketing consumer goods
Sean’s insight on how to convey both warmth and competence in a proposal response
How callout boxes function as preattentive attributes and why that’s important
Why we’re more motivated by a loss than a gain (and how to use that principle in an RFP response)
The concept of a haptic cue and how it applies to visual images in a proposal
How sensory language helps us be more persuasive in an RFP response
How to use the ‘laddering interview’ to develop win themes and identify language that resonates with decision makers
Sean’s take on the value of making digital RFP submissions more interactive
How we might use neuromarketing to understand the biology of making purchasing decisions
Connect with Sean
Resources
RFP Success Show EP104 Transcription
You're listening to the RFP Success Show with eight-time author, speaker and CEO of the RFP Success Company, Lisa Rehurek. Tune in each episode to learn what today's capture and RFP teams are doing to increase their win percentages by up to 20%, 30% and even 50% and meet the industry Trailblazers that are getting it right. Let's get started.
Lisa Rehurek (00:23):
Hello, everybody, and welcome to the RFP Success Show podcast. I'm your host, Lisa Rehurek, founder and CEO of the RFP Success Company. And I would like to introduce you to our guests for today's episode, All About Psychology of Consumer Behavior, Sean Stewart.
Lisa Rehurek (00:41):
So, Sean has a really interesting background. He's got 20 years of service marketing experience, 15 of which had been in the architecture, engineering, and construction industry. And he's worked for firms large, small, in a variety of roles, including proposal writer, proposal manager and marketing director. He has a Master's of Science Degree in Applied Psychology from USC, where he focused on consumer psychology.
Lisa Rehurek (01:06):
And when I first met Sean, this is kind of the conversation that we had. And he shared with me how he has conducted research on how visual cues unconsciously influence service provider selection. And he focuses on how to apply principles and consumer psychology and behavioral economics to proposal development and marketing professional services. And I just thought it was super fascinating and a great topic to share with all of you.
Lisa Rehurek (01:34):
So, Sean's actually, currently, working on establishing his own consulting practice, and as a partner in a residential consulting company with his wife and family. Sean, you've got a lot going on, but welcome to the podcast.
Sean Stewart (01:46):
Yeah, thanks so much for inviting me.
Lisa Rehurek (01:48):
Yeah, it's super exciting to have you here. And again, I love this topic, because it's so relevant. And I don't know that very many people really pay attention to it when it comes to proposal development. So, I want to kick it off by having you tell us what got you into this world of consumer psychology.
Sean Stewart (02:07):
It's funny. So, when I first did my undergraduate degree, I thought I wanted to be a therapist. And I did the whole internship counseling. I liked research. So, I was doing some research. When I'm thinking I wanted to be a professor and therapist and found out that it's really hard to get a job as a professor, and therapists really don't make that much, unfortunately. And also, I found I really didn't like doing therapy that much.
Sean Stewart (02:34):
So, I went into marketing. And I use what I've learned in marketing, or in psychology in marketing, and it just evolved from there and realized, I still was interested in psychology. So, I wanted to learn a little bit more. And so, I went back and found an education and really focused in on into the psychology and what influences purchasing decisions.
Lisa Rehurek (02:58):
I love this so much, because that's a perfect example of how you think that one path is what you're really passionate about. But then, it's interesting how what you're passionate about can show up in so many different ways, and you were able to mirror the two of those. That's pretty cool. Let's talk about what consumer psychology even is. You touched on it just a little bit, or you hinted to it a little bit. But what is consumer psychology?
Sean Stewart (03:24):
So, on a basic level, it's studying how people assess, beside purchase and use products and services. And so, in consumer psychology, you're looking at consumer behaviors, you're looking at their beliefs, their attitudes, even some of their background and how that influences how they interact in the marketplace, and decide what they're going to buy and why they're going to buy something.
Lisa Rehurek (03:52):
It's so interesting too, that advertising and marketing, especially if you look at the huge firms, they have a pretty good grasp on who their audiences and all of that psychology...
Sean Stewart (04:04):
Yes.
Lisa Rehurek (04:04):
... and I'm not sure, we, as normal, non-marketing folks out in the world even realize what goes into that. But there's so much more to just putting a headline on a magazine, right?
Sean Stewart (04:14):
Oh, yeah.
Lisa Rehurek (04:15):
There's so much behind that.
Sean Stewart (04:16):
Yeah, it's a very drawn-out process. I mean, when you're looking at consumer goods, we're a little bit different. Typically, proposal writers, we're doing what they call Account Based Marketing. So, unlike regular consumer goods, you have thousands, millions of potential customers, and you don't have that many opportunities to reach them.
Sean Stewart (04:38):
For us, it's a little bit flipped, and that there's very few decision makers and consumers, but we have a lot of different opportunities to interact with them. So, it is a little bit different. But when you're looking at consumer goods, one of the big things is segmentation. It's not every customer is alike.
Sean Stewart (04:57):
And so, we do this even in the RFP world. For example, in engineering firms, we do some segmentation. We say, "You know what? We work with schools, or we work with this type of engineering or this type of client." And we may do things like client tiers. We said, "Hey, these are our best clients, this is what they're like." And it could be, "Hey, they're mid-size agencies that have certain type of projects."
Sean Stewart (05:21):
So, that's usually, as far as we get into it. But that's okay, because that works for us. But when you look at the consumer side, you're looking at surveys, you're looking at really defining society and segmenting them and identifying which one of those groups buys your product the most, and how do you reach that group, knowing what they're like. And so, some of it is a bit overkill for what we do. But there are some techniques and things that we can apply to that, to what we do is proposals.
Lisa Rehurek (05:55):
Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. Because in the proposal world, you're going to have one school of thought that's like, look, they ask the questions, we respond to the questions, and life is good, right?
Sean Stewart (06:05):
Yeah.
Lisa Rehurek (06:05):
And then, also, we're working on a deadline. And so, for those of us that don't have a master's degree in consumer psychology, how can we simplify this to include it in proposals without needing that master's degree, but also within the timeframe that we're working in, and all of that fun stuff?
Sean Stewart (06:25):
Yeah. So, the good news is, you don't need a master's degree in consumer psychology to apply some of this stuff. If you ever have an interest and just do some reading, there are little techniques and tricks that you can use. One example that I always go back to, and I think this is probably one of the biggest principles that you can apply is, there's a book called The Human Brand, by Malone and Fiske, and they talked about the concept of warmth and competence.
Sean Stewart (06:55):
So, they talk about brand identity. And so, warmth, basically, is a brand or company's positive intentions towards others, or towards the consumer. Competence is that company's ability to act on those intentions. And so, with marketing, depending on the type of industry, you want to make sure that you either convey warmth, or competence, or both.
Sean Stewart (07:22):
For example, for more hedonistic or entertainment type services, products, like Disney entertainment, stuff like that, warmth tends to work better. Or if you're looking for a personal appeal, or if the consumer is anxious, then warmth is a way to go. However, when you're looking at professional services, so medical, legal, you're looking at engineering, the stakes are high. If something goes wrong, you're in trouble. For medical, it would be life and death.
Sean Stewart (07:59):
So, in that case, actually, competence is the most important. So, for marketers, what you want to do is, understand how you can convey warmth and competence in your proposal. What I would strongly recommend is, yes, number one, competence is minimum, the bare minimum in professional services. You have to convey that.
Sean Stewart (08:22):
But if you want to send out, you also have to convey the warmth like, "Hey, look, we're here to look after you," those types of messages. So, that's one fast way to do it. Another easy way to do it is, understanding how people view things, and how people remember visual stimuli. Because think about it, our proposal is basically a document, you have a lot of ways to add information.
Sean Stewart (08:50):
So, here's a good example. And I think a lot of people will be familiar with is, do you ever see the callouts? That's like the big thing now the callouts, right?
Lisa Rehurek (08:59):
Yup, yup.
Sean Stewart (08:59):
But you notice, you open a page with a call it, what do you do, you immediately go to the callout, or it's either called out like really big, or it's a different color that's totally opposite of everything else. So, that is what to call preattentive attributes. What that means is, your brain picks up on it before you're even consciously aware of it.
Sean Stewart (09:18):
And so, you automatically track to that spot. Understanding how to use that and when to use that. And I know, I've been guilty of this, I think other people have, it's, "Oh, hey, I have too much tax, I need to break it up. I'm going to put a callout." Yeah, don't know, don't do that. You want to make sure it's what is the most important thing or number that they need to know? That's your callout.
Sean Stewart (09:41):
So, because odds are, there's a good chance they're not going to read the whole page, but they'll see the callout. So, little tricks like that, understanding that. And then, the other thing I would say, is understanding behavioral economics. And so, that's a separate but overlapping field were basically, it's... The economists finally realize, people don't make rational decisions in purchases. In fact, most purchasing decision is unconscious.
Sean Stewart (10:11):
Even if you have, you're reading a proposal, you have your score sheet, how you interpret that, those scores and assigned scores can be influenced. And so, understanding some of the things that affect your decision when you're making a money or economic decision.
Sean Stewart (10:30):
So, for example, there's work by Daniel Kahneman and Richard Thaler, if you ever hear the phrase or the saying, you're more motivated by a loss than a game...
Lisa Rehurek (10:40):
Right.
Sean Stewart (10:41):
... that came from their research. And the reason why is because if you feel you own something, you assign higher value to that. So, knowing that, if you can make it seem like, we're your consultants, it's not guaranteed to win you the job, but it gives you a little bit of a nudge in the right direction.
Sean Stewart (10:59):
So, a lot of those little techniques you can apply. Even without, you read a couple of books, or just do a quick Google search on it, you can pick up a couple of things and realize, "Hey, I can implement this into my proposal."
Lisa Rehurek (11:12):
Subtle little nuances, right? Because we always say to people, like people buy with emotion. I don't care how into statistics, and just hardcore people are, they're still going to buy based on emotion, some degree, and the job of the proposal writer is to build trust, to get to that emotion. And everything that you're saying, in my mind is saying, "Oh, this is just building more trust, building more trust." And speaking to that emotional side.
Sean Stewart (11:43):
Totally. And talking about building trust, just understanding a little bit about how I view things, and the emotional impact of visual images. If you work with a graphic designer in your firm, I always say the best graphic designers are artists, they have an art degree. And then, they also know InDesign or Photoshop, because just because you know something, you know how to use a program, it doesn't mean you understand the reason why things look good, and how it impacts.
Sean Stewart (12:14):
So, an example is, to build trust, you're looking at one thing, competence, there are actually different cues, visual cues that influence perceptions of warmth, and competence. For example, things that appear solid or rigid, or darker colors, blues, those elicit perceptions of competence.
Sean Stewart (12:39):
Things that look like light, airy, a lot of negative space, or light colors, or even more warmer colors, actually do elicit perceptions of warmth in an advertisement or an image. You can even do things like having a visual cue. For example, in my master's thesis, one thing I did is I looked at the role of haptic cues.
Lisa Rehurek (13:02):
What's the word?
Sean Stewart (13:03):
Haptic.
Lisa Rehurek (13:04):
Okay.
Sean Stewart (13:05):
Yeah, haptic cue. It's something that indicates you should grab or hold something. So, a handle is a haptic cue, and you can see this next time you go to the store. You go to the store, look at the milk jugs, look at the detergent, whenever the label is facing you, the handle is always going to be on your right. Most people are right-handed. So, if you're lucky, sorry, you're kind of out of luck. But, yeah.
Lisa Rehurek (13:30):
I'm lucky.
Sean Stewart (13:32):
But what they found is that, whenever they put the handle on the right side, that product sells better compared to the left, if the handles on the left. People like to interact with things that are easy to grasp. And so, that also, that concept also carries over to images.
Sean Stewart (13:51):
And so, I actually based my thesis off of a researcher, [inaudible 00:13:56]. And she did this interesting study where, she made like a mini-Ikea catalog ad, how you have the clock on the wall.
Lisa Rehurek (14:05):
Yeah.
Sean Stewart (14:05):
Yeah. So, she had a clock on the wall and had a table. And on the table, it had a coffee mug in the middle, the right, the left. And then, there's another photo that some people saw without the mug. And what she found is that whenever there was the mug on the table, people wanted to buy that product more. When it was on the right and easier to grasp, it went up even more.
Sean Stewart (14:31):
Now, it wasn't a huge difference. There's only like 2% or something like that. But it was significant. And if you're looking at a product, with a consumer good you have so many people that can buy it, 1% or 2% is a big impact.
Lisa Rehurek (14:43):
Right.
Sean Stewart (14:44):
Now, proposals, not necessarily. But the cool thing about that is, what if you apply that early in the sales process before the RFP? You have a lot of opportunities to reach them if you consistently use the right kind of cues that can create a bit of an impact.
Lisa Rehurek (15:06):
How does that show up in a visual in a document? For example, how do you take the milk carton analogy and transfer that to a visual in a document?
Sean Stewart (15:16):
A good way to do it is, let's say you're doing a water project. It's an RFP for a water system or something like that. You have your cover, and it can use, there's an image somewhere of someone handing you a glass of water on the right side of their visual field. And the great thing about it, you have your team, a picture of your team, whatever. But what if you put it in front of a desk, and there's a mug or a pen, or something that you don't really grasp on the right side of the image, it doesn't have to deal... The great thing about this, and what [inaudible 00:15:48] found was that, it doesn't have to have anything at all to do with the service, your advertising, just that it's there.
Sean Stewart (15:57):
Now, there's one caveat, and this is what I learned the hard way, because I applied this to professional services. So, medical and legal. If the image or the cue has a negative connotation, it actually does the opposite. So, be very careful. So, my mistake was, my visual cue was a doctor handing your prescription in the middle of the COVID pandemic.
Sean Stewart (16:20):
So, guess what happened? It actually decreased. So, it's funny how that works. But even the language choice you use. For example, sensory language. You can write things that convey weight, like write Chevy, like a rock. What does that mean? It's dependable. Something like that, like rock solid advice, or something like along those lines of sensory language or phrase that conveys weight, or rigidness, or something solid, can help convey perceptions of competence.
Lisa Rehurek (16:56):
That's fascinating. I love that. Yeah, sorry, my mind is spinning around that whole, because I was just about to ask you, if we look at non-visual. Now, we're looking at the content itself. And people are forming the visual in their head, how do we frame the verbiage, so that they're forming the right image in their head? And it starts to get a little complex, right? But...
Sean Stewart (17:21):
Oh, totally.
Lisa Rehurek (17:23):
... how can we simplify that? And it sounds like what you just said, which was like using some of those anchor words. Any other ideas on some words? So, we talked about something that conveys strength? What other words would we may be used to convey other types of feelings, competence, trust, any of that? Anything else come to mind?
Sean Stewart (17:46):
Yeah. So, I'm thinking back on my... The research that I did. So, some of the attorney ads, I put rock solid legal advice. Among the people that were actually, actively or recently hired an attorney or looking to hire an attorney, having the sensory language actually increased, "Hey, I want to hire that one," based on this ad.
Sean Stewart (18:06):
The medical I did, I put some like tastes better than an apple a day, but works better, or it doesn't taste as good as an apple day, but works better. So, I had the taste that close...
Lisa Rehurek (18:14):
Oh, I love that.
Sean Stewart (18:16):
And so, some other thing you want to consider with sensory language, there's a concept called psychological distance. So, what that means is, how far away is the need or the service from you both spatially and temporally. So, let's say, okay, I need to refi my house next year, right? Or I'm an agency, okay, you know what? In five years, I need to do this project, because this is falling apart. It's far away.
Sean Stewart (18:43):
People tend to think about things that are far away in more abstract terms. And so, what happens with that is, if you use sensory language, or images that correspond to the distance, they tend to respond better to those, and it's more persuasive.
Sean Stewart (19:03):
So, for example, if something's far away, what I would do is, okay, it's far away, I would use images that are far away. Or, this is the coolest thing I saw, there's a researcher, I forgot his name, but they use the level of the horizon. So, if the horizon was lower, so it looked like it was farther away, that worked best for services or products that were far away in time or space.
Sean Stewart (19:32):
So, you had to drive really far to get it, or they didn't need it yet, but in the future. And also, century language, like senses that are far away, sight, sound, tend to be farther away from you. So, what that did is, if you use that type of language for things that are off in the future, it is more persuasive.
Sean Stewart (19:55):
If it's something like, close up, like oh, they need it right now, images that will appear closer. So, even the horizon line, it's higher. So, it looks like it's closer, is more persuasive.
Lisa Rehurek (20:05):
Yeah.
Sean Stewart (20:06):
The type of sensory language you use, taste, touch is more persuasive for things that are closer. And it gets really interesting because if it's something that is tangible, researchers have found that a tangible product, so you're doing an RFP, or an actual piece of equipment or whatever, it's something tangible. Text actually, is more persuasive.
Sean Stewart (20:29):
However, if it's something that is a little more abstract, like a service, or design, or something out in the future, picture's work better. So, just some of those basic understandings, knowing, okay, when to use more text, when to use more pictures, because there are times, one of you, "Hey, heavy text is actually desirable." Not often.
Lisa Rehurek (20:53):
No, don't say that.
Sean Stewart (20:53):
Yeah, I know, I know, I know. But here's the caveat, it's not very often. If it's a service, no, I would do more photos. But there are sometime, but understanding when and why is key, some of that understanding. And so, you can start basically tailoring your response to some things that you've read, and these are aren't things that are, "Oh, someone had this idea." It's like, "No, it's been research. It's pure reviewed. There it is."
Sean Stewart (21:24):
And so, I can't guarantee it'll work in every situation. But generally, hey, this is research, it looks like it's going to work. And just understanding those little things. And there are a lot of books out there that can go through those different theories.
Lisa Rehurek (21:42):
And there's some that, we've talked about some simple things that people can do. So, it doesn't need to get super complex. It just needs to be thinking about some of these words and thinking about your visuals differently. We're going to take a quick break for a quick commercial. We're going to be right back and we're going to talk.
Lisa Rehurek (22:00):
So, Sean we're going to talk about some future trends. We're going to have him give us like one key tip of something that you can implement immediately. So, stay tuned, we will be right back.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
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Lisa Rehurek (22:34):
All right. Everybody, welcome back from break. Again, we're here with Sean Stewart talking all about the psychology of consumer behavior and how we can apply this to proposals. And there's been so much gold in this so far. I loved the conversation.
Lisa Rehurek (22:48):
I'm going to take us back a little way here, the conversation about the callout boxes, because one of my biggest pet peeves is callout boxes, because people will be like, "Oh," just like you said, Sean, people will say, "We need to break up the text here, let's put a callout box," and they'll pull something out like, "We were founded in 1937," and blah, blah, blah, or "We have 17 medical professionals that yada, yada, yada." None of that is important in a callout box, right?
Lisa Rehurek (23:14):
And everything that you're saying here and some of the keywords and some of that building competence, and building trust, and getting that warmth, those are the things that need to be showcased in those callout boxes, or any visuals for that matter. So, I love, love, love hearing that.
Lisa Rehurek (23:32):
So, one of the things that we are always preaching to our clients is that, this sale begins long before the RFP is released. If you're just going to bid on an RFP that comes across your plate, it's cold, you don't know them, you have a really low chance of winning. How can we apply this kind of philosophy to the conversations during relationship building, even before that RFP comes out?
Sean Stewart (24:01):
Yeah. So, one thing about that, and I was talking to someone recently, everyone says, "Okay, you have to talk to them before the RFPs out." And I was wondering also, why? And I think the assumption is also you know their needs, and you can understand them. And I think that's it. But I also think that the fact that getting to know the client, I don't think is necessarily a means to an end, but it's actually the ends in itself.
Sean Stewart (24:28):
I think the fact that you go out there and talk to them, I think prime's the client to think of you as the solution to their issue. So, they associate you with a successful outcome. And...
Lisa Rehurek (24:42):
Hopefully.
Sean Stewart (24:43):
Yeah, hopefully, yeah, unless you really blow it in the interview when talking to them. But I think that, because this is a huge risk. I mean, these people's careers can be on the line, the project managers, that hire you. And so, I think that getting to know them, helps build that trust. And I think that fact in and of itself, I think is one of the key things, if not more so than understanding the needs. Because...
Lisa Rehurek (25:08):
Also, wouldn't you say that, as you were talking about, building competence, building warmth, as you get to know the client, and you get to know who's going to be the buyer and/or the evaluators, wouldn't that also help in knowing more about how you need to be building competence and warmth than that proposal?
Sean Stewart (25:27):
Yes, yes, that too. Yeah, there's one way to do that. There's something called means-end theory. Once I've described this, I think everyone that writes RFPs be like, "Oh, I know that." It's like what we always do. You sit down, you say, "Okay, what are our win things?" And that's, I think, a little cliche, a little overused. But those are great, it's a good exercise. So, what do they need? Okay, what is the attribute of our service or product that meets that need? How does it benefit them? How do we prove it?
Sean Stewart (25:58):
So, it means-end theory is like that, but it's a lot deeper. They use what's called the laddering interview. So, how it works is, you ask. So, for example, on, let's say, it's an IT provider, and you're doing a proposal for an IT provider, and you're trying to do the pre-work before the RPS is out. And it's okay, so when you selected a consultant, why did you select this consultant versus another one? Oh, well, they were more responsive. Okay. Oh, that's great. Why is being more responsive, so important to you? What does that do for you? What does it mean, if they're not responsive?
Sean Stewart (26:36):
And then, they made something like, "Oh, well, then that way, we have less downtime." Okay, great, when we have an issue. So, why is getting back on track after an issue less downtime so important? Then, you go to the next thing, and you drive it in, all the way and you get to the point to where it's like, it's almost where you get to the value, the underlying value.
Sean Stewart (26:58):
And so, it could be something like, when they say, "Oh, well, it saves us money. We don't lose money." Okay, so why is not losing money is so important? Oh, because we need to be responsible. So, why is being responsible... And you just keep going, going, going. And then, you find out that, hey, there's a sense of pride underneath all that, of getting your system and keeping it up and running.
Sean Stewart (27:21):
So, it's like what we already do, but a little deeper. And with the lettering interviews, which you can do, and this is normally done with consumer goods, and with hundreds, thousands of people, but you can still do it over several conversations as part of your regular pre-sale, or business moment activities with all the stakeholders.
Sean Stewart (27:43):
And what you can do is, you look at, you break it out into, okay, so what is the attribute of the product? So, what is the functional consequence? What is the tangible benefit? But also, you look at what is the psychosocial benefit, because the tangible benefit will usually lead to like social. Basically, psychosocial benefits, I feel good, I feel responsible, like I'm protecting the company.
Sean Stewart (28:08):
And then, once you understand why that's important, then you get to the value. And what people do is, you actually list them all out, and you can start seeing interconnections between them. And what that will do is, give you the win theme, but also give you language that will resonate with all the decision makers or most of the decision makers. So, it's a standard practice in consumer psychology, but I think there's ways that you can modify it, to use into proposals and what we do.
Lisa Rehurek (28:40):
Yeah, I think so too. I think that's beautiful. And it is interesting, because people will say to me, too, like, "Why does it matter that we built a relationship?" They're going to ask us the questions, they're going to ask like, yeah, but you can't answer them appropriately, and really hit on what their hot buttons are, and what they really care about.
Lisa Rehurek (28:59):
And a lot of times, they don't even know. And that questioning that you just talked about, helps uncover things that they didn't necessarily even realize. So, I think that that's a really great method for doing that.
Lisa Rehurek (29:14):
I'm going to switch gears a bit here. I want to ask you about the future, what future trends do you see as having the impact in how we respond to RFPs short-term or long-term? And maybe, has the pandemic changed anything? Tell us a little bit about what is like the future.
Sean Stewart (29:31):
Yeah, short-term directions and I think the pandemic is actually, seeing this up is we're seeing more and more digital submissions.
Lisa Rehurek (29:41):
Oh, thank God, I know...
Sean Stewart (29:42):
Yes, I know. Yeah, eight copies plus a CD-ROM with the... I said, "Guys, really?" This has visual. Oh, and my favorite, I had a client once asked for eight copies, a CD-ROM, and an unbound copy, so they can make copies themselves. I'm like, "Really, guys?" Yeah.
Lisa Rehurek (29:59):
Then, what you should in two weeks, right?
Sean Stewart (30:03):
Yeah, but the digital... And the cool thing about the digital submission, it gives you a more opportunity, more flexibility to do other things. You can create an interactive PDF, with I think, the next steps will be with our digital submissions is make it more interactive.
Lisa Rehurek (30:24):
I love that.
Sean Stewart (30:26):
So, for example, one thing that longtime... This is actually, on a par bound print proposal years ago. It was for a park. It was a skate park. And what I wanted to do, I found a printer that the tabs would actually, you can actually die cut so they can pop out things and put it in to make like little skate ramp, a little finger skateboard. I thought, "You know what? You could actually play with the proposal, you interact with it, or do something where you have like a magnetic, it actually had like magnetic covers, and you had a die cut pop out, and you can actually rearrange the layout of your part, or whatever it was. I thought that'd be so awesome. But it would...
Lisa Rehurek (31:09):
That's so fun, because these things are boring as heck for...
Sean Stewart (31:13):
Exactly.
Lisa Rehurek (31:14):
Right? They're usually, so boring. How fun would that be?
Sean Stewart (31:17):
Yeah, but the cost and versus how much we get from a project, it was just, it didn't work out. But it's a cool idea. And so, but now with digital, you can do that. You can have an exhibit, you have an image on a PDF, "Hey, here's our potential layout, by the way, click and drag and move stuff around, if you want to change it."
Lisa Rehurek (31:36):
That's cool.
Sean Stewart (31:37):
And the cool thing about that, that leads back to some of the visual cues and especially the haptic cues like the handling because what they found is, in a store, once you touch an object, you're more likely to buy it. And the cool thing is, if you touch a screen, like a touchscreen, it has the same effect.
Sean Stewart (31:59):
So, if you're playing with it, it can increase purchasing intention like, "Hey, I like this." You interact with it, you like it more, it's more stimulating. You're probably more likely to a little bit more likely to select them, especially if you're neck and neck. So, I think that's one of the things that short-term.
Sean Stewart (32:17):
Another thing would be, things are going to be more data driven, really quantifying things. You can't do everything. But there are some things that you can do. I mean, we already have metrics, when was, how often we get interviewed, shortlisted, things like that. But it goes beyond that.
Sean Stewart (32:37):
So, one thing that I've done is, we have the dreaded go, no-go form or interview, that people may or may not listen, or they try to talk themselves out of a no-go. So, what I did, and it's like, it's arbitrary. So, how do I know? And so, this actually, corresponds to anything.
Sean Stewart (32:55):
So, for two years, I kept our go, no-go forums, every single one, put on a spreadsheet, coded one for lost, two for win, and then run a correlation. You can do it in Excel. Correlation on the whole thing, and it was a really bad correlation. It was like point five or something. I'm like, "Yeah, no." But then, when I went back, and looked at the question, individual questions, run a correlation, individual questions. I only kept the ones that had like a point seven or above.
Sean Stewart (33:24):
And it's funny, because sometimes, a point two correlation, some had a negative correlation. So, like, okay, that's really bad. I took those out, and then rerun it, I have the correlation coefficient, like point eight. So, I'm like, "That's pretty good." And so, I did that. And then, I also looked at the individual scores. And said, okay, so base on these questions, we have a range from zero to 30 points.
Sean Stewart (33:48):
And so, I looked every single one. Okay, what was the score? And how often did we win when we got this score or above? And what I found was that, once we scored 20, we won 80% or above. And the cool thing was, there's a big drop between 20 and 19. It went from like 80%, to like 60%. I was like, "Oh, okay, cool." So, 20%, it's our cutoff.
Sean Stewart (34:13):
And I could go back and say, "Guys, when we scored this or above, this is what we get." And the one thing I do too, is I make sure not, more than one person is filling out the form. So, everyone has to agree on the form. Or if one person is really pushing, and I feel skewing the data, I have everyone do it separately, and then average amount. That way, gets rid of that.
Sean Stewart (34:34):
But you can do that. And then, you can even take it a step further, with some basic knowledge of statistics. You can do it in Excel, but it's a pain. But I did a linear regression on the go, no-go form, which is like a correlation on steroids. Basically, what it told me is, you look at the variance in a win and loss, and it told me how much each question contributed to that variance. And what I did it look the highest number.So, I'm like, okay, so 30% of whether or not we win or loss comes down to, did our project manager meet their project manager before the RFP?
Lisa Rehurek (35:13):
Huge. Wow.
Sean Stewart (35:13):
Twenty-five percent, or something, or 20%. After that was like, did we talk to them six months at a time? So, half of the variance, whether or not we won or lost, was those two questions. So, it's like, "Hey, guys, focus on these two areas." So, it helps you narrow down where you can have the biggest impact. So, I think that's the short-term.
Lisa Rehurek (35:30):
One of the things that that does also is that, for proposal teams that are constantly trying to have a seat at the table, that are feeling they're the ugly stepchildren. This giving you a voice in that and you're adding huge value back to the organization to say, "Look, when we say, yes, and we put these two points aside and say, oh, we scored low on these two things, but we really want to bid, rah, rah, let's go." And then, we continue to find out that those are the clinchers. That's huge data that can be shared, and value added up to leadership, in my opinion.
Sean Stewart (36:10):
Yeah.
Lisa Rehurek (36:12):
It's a lot of money to bid on something that you do.
Sean Stewart (36:14):
Yeah, and it helps you... Based on that, we were able to, I think cut the number of RFPs in half. But we wanted more money. We want more, and we got more. So, it's like, there's things that you can do to really focus your efforts. I think long-term, some people still are not too sure about this. But I think neuro marketing. I got introduced to this because one of my thesis advisors, that's what he does.
Sean Stewart (36:40):
Basically, it looks at the biological functions involved in purchasing decisions. So, what happens in your brain, your brain chemistry, brain activity, when you're making a purchasing decision. There's something called immersion neuroscience, that's my thesis advisor, Dr. Barraza, company he had found. What they do is they put people... They'll take like a music video or a movie trailer, and they'll put on like a Google Glass, and an Apple watch or something or like a Fitbit.
Sean Stewart (37:13):
And what they'll do is they'll track their eye movements, they'll track their pupil dilation, they'll track their polls, galvanic skin response, and everything else. And based on that, they can figure out if that music video or that movies, or Charlie's trailer will be a hit, or people will like it...
Lisa Rehurek (37:32):
Wow.
Sean Stewart (37:32):
... based on your biological responses to things. And it's really interesting, because there are some things that you can do still, one thing is understanding the role of oxytocin, the neurotransmitter, because that's involved in trust, that's involved in liking and empathy.
Sean Stewart (37:49):
And so, it's not like you're going to like lace your proposal with like oxytocin, so they get a whiff of it or something. There have been companies that made oxytocin cologne, which I think is a horrible idea because...
Lisa Rehurek (38:01):
Wow.
Sean Stewart (38:01):
... it tells person, we'll actually smell it too. So, it's going to throw them off as well. And it's kind of unethical. But there are ways, for example, storytelling can actually increase levels of oxytocin. So, when you ever hear people say, "Hey, if you have a project experience, or project case study, make it a story." Yup, that's why it's effective.
Sean Stewart (38:24):
Because if you make the clients or your proposal read, like a story, your approach, they're the hero in the story, or anything, make it a story, make the hero, make the challenge have to do, that tends to build a little bit of empathy towards the subject in that story.
Sean Stewart (38:42):
So, you have a project description, hey, the client you're talking about, they're the hero. The person reading will have empathy, that increases oxytocin. Oxytocin has a role in trust. So, if you write it well, and again, it's not going to be like, "Oh, it's like a story," they're tired every time." No, it's a little bit of a nudge.
Sean Stewart (39:03):
And so, these are all things that add up, and understanding how that works, and understanding how different things influence your decision. Again, the oxytocin, you have interview...
Lisa Rehurek (39:15):
It's really fascinating.
Sean Stewart (39:16):
Yeah.
Lisa Rehurek (39:16):
Yeah, wouldn't it be fun to line up the evaluators on a particular proposal and get have them have Google Glasses on them, get their brain reaction to the different proposals that...
Sean Stewart (39:27):
Oh, yeah. And eye movement where are they looking.
Lisa Rehurek (39:30):
Yeah.
Sean Stewart (39:32):
And that's another thing too, because people based on eye movements studies, people tend to read in the Z pattern, or look at a page in the Z pattern.
Lisa Rehurek (39:39):
Yeah.
Sean Stewart (39:40):
So, that's how you want to line up your information. But also, little things like you're going to a... Your shortlist, you're going to interview, bring chocolate. Chocolate increases oxytocin. Your chocolate increases oxytocin loss. So, there's like, little things like that. It's like, okay, yeah, here. But also, providing a gift increases trust as well.
Sean Stewart (40:01):
So, there's a lot of different things that you can do. But yeah, in neuro, I think neuro marketing, it's still fairly new. But I think that's going to be the next 10, 15 years from now, we're going to be start talking about that.
Lisa Rehurek (40:14):
That would be fascinating to see how that plays. Well, Sean, this has been a really fun, fascinating conversation. I know, I keep using word fascinating, but it's just, it's different. I think, for a lot of us to be thinking this way. And I think you've given us some really great tips. So, if people want to get in touch with you, how can they best do that?
Sean Stewart (40:34):
Yeah, just search me on LinkedIn. And I think, yeah, if you can press that out. And now, my email, always happy to talk to anyone.
Lisa Rehurek (40:41):
Okay. We will have your LinkedIn and your email in the show notes, along with a couple of things that you referenced. We'll have some links to those as well. So, thank you so much for being on the show, Sean.
Sean Stewart (40:52):
Cool. That's fun.
Lisa Rehurek (40:53):
It has been a pleasure to have you here.
Sean Stewart (40:55):
Thanks. That's fun.
Lisa Rehurek (40:57):
Yeah, absolutely. All right, everybody. So, thank you for being here and listening to the show. If you haven't already done so, we always appreciate your five-star ratings if you're enjoying this podcast. So, wherever you're listening, give us your nice ratings. We love that. We love that. So, on behalf of my wonderful guests and myself, I want to thank you all for listening to the RFP Success Show.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
This has been another episode of the RFP Success Show with Lisa Rehurek, eight-time author, speaker and CEO of the RFP Success Company. Thank you for joining us. If you have feedback on today's episode, email us at podcast@rfpsuccess.com. No matter your business size industry, if you have an in-house RFP team or need outside support, RFP Success Company helps increase RFP win ratios by 10%, 20% and even 50%. Learn more at the rfpsuccesscompany.com.